Dr. Jennifer Mullan: Decolonizing healing and honoring our sacred rage (Ep465)

Written By kaméa chayne
Chi Nwosu / Green Dreamer ft. Dr. Jennifer Mullan
“I think that sacred rage is sexy. I think sacred rage is holy, in the purest sense. Like, it is a clear response and conduit from our bodies, from people that came before us, our blood or collective ancestors, to what is happening in the present moment.”
— Dr. Jennifer Mullan

How do we stay rooted when experiencing stories of injustice, one after another, while navigating a world that often wants to suppress our grief and anger? What is sacred about rage, and what kinds of rage are sacred? And what do we reorient ourselves towards when the dominant systems of extraction and exploitation tend to discourage acts of radical care, reciprocity, and shared abundance?

In this episode, Green Dreamer’s kaméa speaks with Dr. Jennifer Mullan, a major disruptor in the mental health industrial complex and the author of Decolonizing Therapy: Oppression, Historical Trauma and Politicizing Your Practice.

Join us as we explore what it means to stay human during times of fracture, honoring our dynamic range of emotions from joy to heartbreak, and to tether our sacred rage to movements greater than ourselves.

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  • tap into our bonus extended and video version of this conversation on Patreon here;

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Dr. Jennifer Mullan on Green Dreamer
 

About our guest:

Dr. Jennifer Mullan, PsyD, is a major disruptor in the mental health industrial complex. Affectionately nicknamed “the Rage Doctor” by peers and clients, her work is an urgent call to dive into the root of global and generational trauma to unlock the wisdom of our sacred rage.

Dr. Jenn birthed Decolonizing Therapy®, a psychological evolution that weaves together political, ancestral, therapeutic, and global well-being. She is also the creator of the popular Instagram account @decolonizingtherapy and recipient of Essence magazine’s 2020 Essential Hero Award in the category of mental health. Dr. Jennifer Mullan is the author of “Decolonizing Therapy: Oppression, Historical Trauma and Politicizing Your Practice” which has ignited a fervent wave of acclaim and community support as a National Best Seller.

Artistic credits:

Episode artwork: Chi Nwosu

Musical offering: “New song old prayer,” by Johanna Warren

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interview transcript

Disclaimer: Please note that Green Dreamer’s interviews are minimally edited (both audio and non-verbatim transcript) for clarity and brevity only. All statements should be understood as commentary based on publicly available information, and the views expressed in this interview are those of the guest and host only and do not necessarily reflect the views of Green Dreamer.

While we have made reasonable effort in our interview research and production process to ensure accuracy, we do not present our commentary as factual assertion and we are unable to guarantee the completeness or correctness of every piece of information shared. As such, we invite you to view our publications as references and starting points to dive more deeply into each topic and thread explored. Thank you for adventuring with us.

Kaméa Chayne: Today, we are incredibly honored to welcome Dr. Jennifer Mullan, a major disruptor in the mental health industrial complex, and the author of Decolonizing Therapy: Oppression, Historical Trauma and Politicizing Your Practice. Dr. Jenn has been been affectionately nicknamed “the rage doctor”, and her work is an urgent call to dive into the roots of global and generative trauma, and to unlock the wisdom of our sacred rage.

There’s so much to hold and process emotionally in times of rupture like this. And I think I just felt so seen by this conversation, in a world that often wants us to suppress our grief, our rage, our anger at injustice, state violence, and ecological breakdown. How do we honor all of these emotions and connect them to something greater than our selves?

I invite you to take a deep breath if that feels supportive to you in this moment, letting go of anything you’d like to shelf for the time being so you can ease into the present here.

And when you’re ready, I hope you enjoy this discussion, which starts with Dr. Jenn responding to my question of how we navigate or make sense of a time that often gaslights us in so many ways, when weʻre learning about stories of heartbreak after another and then often having to act like nothing is wrong, especially when interacting with people who seem to be completely out of touch with whatʻs happening in the world.

Dr. Jennifer Mullan: I don't make sense of it. What I do realize is that we're in a both/and. You know, again, with the paradox, it seems to be, like, a theme. Yeah. There are individuals in my life and around me that it's like, oh, kind of business as usual. Or they might say it, you know, like, well, we gotta push forward. This is where I'm working with an organization, and they're like, well, we have to, like, give people hope. It's business as usual, and it's not usual for some of us. And for some of us, it is usual.

Yeah. And I wanna acknowledge that, I suppose, working long-term with people who went through, like, sickening amounts of trauma and people who were worried about their livelihood, being deported prior to ICE. Not that it is not absolutely heinous now, and systematic, and just, vicious. Absolutely. But, I feel that, and you may identify with this as well, that living in bodies of culture or being of the diaspora, there's always been a, oh, oh, they're coming for us. Or, oh, oh, like, you know, there’s always kind of a cringe, get ready feeling, where the joyousness and the lightness is always, like, tampered by this, like, perpetual cloud.

And so, sometimes when people are like, why do we get stuck in the past? Or, why can't we just move forward? I think to myself, well, many of us are in the practice of moving forward. And when there's constant threat of trauma, or death, or eviction, or, like, will I fit here physically, literally in my wheelchair? Like, when there's a constant anxious, understandable worry, it becomes really hard to feel light.

And so, I say this to say, I think that I'm one of those people who sometimes, I've realized, in places and spaces that I'm needed to, like, whatever lighten up means, you know. But it doesn't help me to go into team meetings, or with faculty or staff meetings, and, like, always be the harbinger of, like, the truth and doom. Because not only were folks not ready physically, mentally, emotionally, culturally, but it placed me in this very unique place that I always needed to be that source. And then that ended up taking a toll on me. And not just me, but I would imagine many other people that were in that place.

So, current day, I do my best to have a really strong morning and evening practice. Even if it seems silly or, like, well, this isn't deep or helpful. And part of that practice is grounding in and thinking about the children in the Congo, thinking about Palestinians, thinking about babies. Thinking about, like, thanking my food and blessing it before I ingest it. Not being as wasteful, right? Like, really taking consciousness, and also realizing what an f-ing privilege. And what are all of the things that I complained about today, like, unconsciously, right? And what can I do a little bit differently tomorrow?

And so, lately, going back to what I've been feeling is, hmm, maybe I need to like bring up blank, and have a hard conversation with this person. Because I notice every time we talk it's about something that I find frivolous in the midst of collapse and genocide, like, cleansing and a war on specific kinds of bodies, right? Because principalities are threatened. Here and externally, they are threatened. Because we're doing a good job. We're doing a good job of being inclusive, and being present, and being loving, I think, to one another as much as we're not.

And so, not to sound cheesy, but the simplest things are things I need. If I'm not doing a small, like, lymphatic or Qigong, like, a 10, 15-minute practice, then I'm walking outside for 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes. I am thinking about my coffee beans and where I got them from. I'm noticing that I'm feeling more gratitude and a sense of absolute expansiveness. And I have lovingly had less contact with individuals that are consistently, just, like, it's not occurring. And if it is occurring or they'll say something or send me something about it, I'm like, oh, great. Okay. I wonder how I can get them more involved. Right. Like, or I wonder how, as a teacher, this shows up in the classroom, right?

And I'll give you an example. I have a long-term loved one, and they are bringing a baby into the world. And four of the books I bought for the baby are for activists. And dah dah dah dah. And like, I end up writing little messages. And then also telling parents that I love, that are great, and that already work with children and adolescents, and are people of the diaspora, and I'm just like, hey, so, if you have questions, let me know. When it comes to these areas, I'm happy to help. It does take a village. I do think children can understand and know about what is happening in the world. Here are some great resources since you're getting ready to literally birth. You might not be thinking about the next year, 2, 3, 4, but these are things you do wanna talk about, because the world has changed and is changing. And the people around me already know I'm gonna say the thing,

So, I hope I answered your question. But yeah, it's like this balance of, I need some joy too. And so sometimes some of these people, when I see and feel them, I feel this, like, slight jealousy. Like, loving jealousy of like, dang, I remember. Well, wait, do I remember? Have I ever felt like that? Have I ever felt light and unbothered? I don't know, was I born like this? I don't know, like, wow, what must it be like to just think about what to make for dinner and, like, what you're wearing that day, and, I don't know, what show you're gonna watch. And like, I will be here, like, sobbing in the morning at my rage altar.

Like, not just thinking about, but thinking about how else this vehicle that I've been asked to steward and drive at this time called Decolonizing Therapy, or my rage work, how it can be a better steward for peace and freedom, and all over the world, from one end to the other. And praying to my ancestors to show me, to show me how to bring in ingenuity and creativity, and to give me a little bit more energy. And all they keep saying to me is also, like, you are not built to be a mule. None of you. Those times are over. And that may be embedded in your intergenerational fascia and your bones. And to overwork, and to feel like you need to do everything, and take care of everyone, and you are not a mule.

And, so lately my ask, my prayer, if you will, for lack of a better word, has been, well, then show me what that assemblance of balance could look like. Does that make sense? Like, show me what that balance could look like. 'Cause some days it is all whoo. And I don't wanna just check out. And then sometimes, they'll remind me that being with nature is not checking out.

Cooking a meal with a loved one is not checking out. Laughing your butt off while eating dinner, watching something is not checking out. Looking at the moon and having a ritual that is close to my ancestry is not checking out, right? Connecting with people who are overwhelmed and sad and lonely, and just wanna talk about things that I think are frivolous because there is a disconnect or something, or they haven't left their house, is not checking out. It's like we need to be firmly rooted here, too, while we, I think, become warriors and stewards for our cousins and siblings across the globe. I hope that makes sense.

Kaméa Chayne: Yeah, it's all connected. We've talked about grief quite a bit in the past, on the show, but not so much about rage, which feels like such an important part of this conversation. Because, as you point out, they kind of mirror each other. So, I'm also curious about this for personal reasons because, in addition to feeling so much grief and broken-heartedness from learning about one tragedy and one heartbreak after another, I also feel a lot of anger and rage for what's happening in the world.

And I think sometimes I surprise myself in terms of how that pops up and shows up in my life. In terms of maybe feeling irritable or impatient, or, honestly, sometimes just wanting to, like, yell and scream at something. So, I'm curious, when you talk about sacred rage, what is sacred about rage? Or what kinds of rage are sacred?

Dr. Jennifer Mullan: Yeah. Yeah. So sacred rage, that's just, like, my favorite topic. So I always have to, like, in my mind, because I just wanna go on. So feel free to stop me here. But let me say that sacred rage is the type of primal, embodied, somatic, healthy, whatever we consider normal to be, air quotes around that emotion, that we are working towards being in relationship with. Yeah. And I think the difference between rage that is just blind and out there and hurting and not thinking about anyone else is that it surprises us. It pulls a wool over our eyes. It stops us in our tracks. It makes us sick afterwards, and we've often hurt ourselves and or somebody else as well.

I think usually it starts there for some people. For some people, they've had 1, 2, 3, or more experiences of having big emotions like rage come out because they feel that there is an injustice, or they feel like they've been slighted or hurt, or there is a feeling of, oh my gosh, no. It's usually around injustice, to be honest. Not always, but generally, like, rage is about injustice. But the thing that makes it sacred is that little kernel of conscientiousness around it. And the little kernel is saying, I'm paying attention to this. That piece where we're willing to be in relationship with it. Yeah. And, so rage, sacred rage, is the love-child of ancestral trauma, grief that has been suffocated, pushed down collectively, and shame.

And part of what I love doing is helping people realize that there's nothing wrong with them, or their child, or whoever. That, no, just wielding this rage willy-nilly is highly problematic. To their bodies, to their nervous systems, to themselves, and to people around them. And wielding this rage without understanding that there's a root and a shadow and an old ancestral lineage is very, very, very dangerous. And so, I think what makes it sacred is that we're paying attention, that we're giving it attention.

Sometimes I like to say that that kind of sacred rage, there's like a… and again, we could reclaim these words for a second, right? And not attach them to systems and structures that we have had experiences with. But like, I think that sacred rage is sexy. I think sacred rage is holy, in the purest sense. Like, it is a clear response and conduit from our bodies, from people that came before us, our blood or collective ancestors, to what is happening in the present moment. And it’s usually saying, not again, not now, not on our watch. Or, hey, we remember this. Or, ooh, this doesn't feel good. Ooh, ooh, ooh. Time out, time out, time out. Right? And it's usually like tapping incessantly on our naturally given intuition.

Anger is very much a feeling, right? Anger could just be all about us, or projecting, and all of that. But rage is something really, really quite special to be honest. And oftentimes we're demonizing it. You know, oftentimes we're just like, I need to stop this rage. Or, my child is kicking and screaming and crashing out. They're acting out. Please fix them. But my first thing when I was working with children and adolescents, without ever really understanding, truly, rage work, until I started working with Ruth King, because I was struggling with rage, because my father struggles with rage, as still does.

And I think one always could have a struggle, right? I could crash out once a year to things that I'm like, oh, there's like the shame hangover is what I call it. Where afterwards you're like. Guess I could have done that different. Yeah. Right. Like, oh, and then you have to ask yourself, is it that other people wanted you to do it different because your realness and breath made them uncomfortable? Right? Or is it that there was harm, and then that's a whole other, it's like chapter five, right? You know?

But first, like, this rage is telling you something. This rage is saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Something here is off. Or my boundary has been deeply, deeply violated. And so, when we are watching or experiencing the threat of deportation, of martial law, of not having agency on our bodies, for our bodies, the thought of not having the kind of care and access to medical and mental health treatment that people need, to our elders not being cared for, to our land being exploited over and over and over, I think it is totally natural, normal, and healthy to have an intense reaction to behaviors that seek to squash resources that should be utilized and that we should be able to share and have and prosper with.

And I think my favorite examples are the ecosystems of nature, of other sentient beings. Right? Like, that a mother bear will protect their cubs, right? There'll be rage. Whether or not we understand it should be a threat, get near a bear's cubs, we will experience wrath, we'll experience, ahhh. The same thing with whether it's a duck, they will fiercely protect their young. And so in that way, if we have been working towards understanding that we are siblings, family, extended people, you know, that this tree in front of me is an extension of me, when that tree is threatened, when that family across the miles is threatened, it is natural for my body, mind, and spirit to experience this whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

And so that's the first thing I wanna say. That we have a right to our rage. And the more that we can be in relationship to it, the more sacred I think it can become. And the more, the less, rather that it will swallow as a whole as a human. I also believe that our rage, in order for it to be sacred, deserves time and space and energy. And that kind of means that we are not consistently at a place where we're trying to push it down, swallow it, and ignore it, or feel bad for it, embarrassed about it, right? Where we see a child's tantrum, and we think, how can we give them space? Right.

Really quick story. I remember being in, maybe a Trader Joe's or something, a couple of years ago. I was minding my business. I just came from a hard workout. I was tired, I was hungry. I wasn't about it. I was thinking about something that was, like, irritating me. I was in a bad mood. And I'm in the grocery store, and the child with a mother in front of me has an absolute meltdown. I closed my eyes. I'm like, ugh. Because in that moment, it's just like normal everyday things.

And I quickly changed my tune when I saw that the mom, what I can assume to be a woman of color, was like, no, no. I could see the embarrassment. I could see the shame. I could see she started to get anxious. The child continued to escalate further. I hear her saying, I know I just gotta pay for this, then you could have it. You know, it was like a simple…and the child's like, I want it. And then everybody's turning around. The manager comes over, and it's like, you think you could take him outside? We'll hold your cart for you. And I just couldn't take it anymore. And I stepped in, and I'm like, hey. I looked at her, and I'm like, would it be all right if I get everybody to chill the fuck out? Am I allowed to say that? I was like, I'm a therapist. I'm, like, but you're the mother. And she's like, no, it's okay. And I was like, can everyone actually just like give her a minute? 'Cause I have a big mouth, as we know. I was like, can everyone, like, give a human minute to a mom and a child?

We've all been here. Even if we don't have children. I don't have children. I've been on the floor rolling around in the middle of a Macy's with my mother. You know, like, can everybody turn around and ignore the behavior so the child doesn't continue to escalate? Please. I was so annoyed. I was annoyed at them, not the child. You know, some people kept looking, and they weren't gonna listen to me, but some other people, like, literally turned their backs and, like, got it. And they were like, oh yeah, if we're gonna keep doing thi the child is gonna keep, right? 'Cause there's an audience and now they're embarrassed. And then it's just like typical child psychology. And she was like, thank you. And she's, like, kind of crying because you could tell it was overwhelmed. The cart is stocked. And the child stopped in about like 45 seconds. It wasn't immediate, but in like 45 seconds. And she's like, thank you. Like, thanks for not being annoyed. And I was like, no, girl, like, I was so annoyed. And then I realized like that wasn't…it's not it.

So I bring this up to say, are we not all just children, right? Like, are we not all just like desiring some semblance of somebody, somewhere, some adult, even if we're adults, somewhere, that can stop the shit that is killing and harming us, right? Don't we all, like a little part of us, don't we all just want someone, something, somewhere to, like, make it better, to make it stop, right? And I'm not saying that we should all turn around, but sometimes we deserve to crash out. Sometimes we need to have that moment, and for someone else to be like, yeah, I'm witnessing you, and it's okay, and I still love you even though this happened. And you're right to feel this way.

This shouldn't be happening. We shouldn't be treating our children like labor. There shouldn't be children that are coming home from school, not knowing where their mother is, and they've been deported, right? There shouldn't be husbands, wives, lovers that are crying for their loved ones. And this fake-ass law enforcement, this military Gestapo, is pulling them away, you know? And so we deserve to crash out a little bit. Or whatever that means to a person, I am the one that would say, your body wants it and deserves it. And your ancestral material is literally screaming out for us to remember that this is not so far-fetched. That this has happened in some way, shape, or form. That colonization has had an impact on almost all of us and continues to, and that we need to wake up like, clap, clap. Wake up, get up, and do something different. Or we'll get what we've always gotten.

[Musical intermission]

Kaméa Chayne: Yeah. So it feels like it's good for rage to sometimes be, or it necessarily needs to be expressed through crash-outs or even just tantrums, whatever that looks like for each of us.

And also, there are times when rage does become destructive to ourselves or to other people. I wonder if part of that comes from the fact that so often the system that perpetuates injustice doesn't actually hold the perpetrators to account. It actually rewards a lot of those behaviors and actions of exploitation of harm, of extraction, and so on. And at the same time, we're often told to suppress all of these emotions and, you know, not given the proper space to tend to them.

So, I'm learning at least that these emotions are healthy and good to feel and express. And maybe when they get suppressed, when they become stagnant in our bodies, they can manifest in something that is destructive to ourselves and to other people. So, then I'm left wondering, like, what does it mean to tether our personal, individual rage to something that is, maybe more mycelial and collective, to know that we're not alone in carrying these containers? And then also, how do we alchemize that rage into something that can really head to its sacred calling?

Dr. Jennifer Mullan: I love it. Yeah. Yes, yes, and triple yes to everything. Amen to everything you're saying. I have found, myself and thousands of people that I've served and work with and been in community and organized with, that one of the most destructive forms of rage is the one in which it continues to go unconscious. Does that make sense? Like, where we kid ourselves into thinking we're over something where. And I wanna say kid ourselves, but let me retract that a little bit and bring it back. It may feel like we're kidding ourselves, but sometimes it's protective, right? Sometimes it's just like straight survival, and sometimes that straight survival really ends up harming relationships, ends up harming us, ends up harming our view of the world.

It gets solidified and stuck in the body, in the mind, in the personality. Because as we know, repetition is the language of trauma, right? Repetition is one of the languages of trauma, anyway. And when the body is like, oh, oh, this kept me pretty safe last time. Yeah, I was misunderstood, but I was safe. Like, you know, or yeah, I shouldn't do that, but I was safe, right? So it's really hard to get out of those repetitive stages. And the thing is that we are connected. That even if we tried, it would be very, very, very, very difficult to not pick up on what's going on around us. Very, very, very difficult. So even when we're like, oh, I have great... like for those like even myself, like, nope, I gotta put up some energetic boundaries, or I've gotta do a little bit of work here, I've gotta, whew, this is too much that I'm taking in. It can help, but there's still a certain amount coming through. Right?

And that's because on some level, you're absolutely right, that half of what we are so enraged about is something so abstract and so out of our control. And yet it's something that is vibrating, I would say, in every single one of us. And that's, that there is a part abandonment, there is part rejection there. There is part of being ripped and taken from home, or being forced to migrate from home, even if people think it's their own ideas, right? Why do people leave their homelands? Why do they need, air quotes, a better opportunity, or a better life, right?

Like, why these things happen, is because systems of control, right, colonize, manipulate, ethnically cleanse, and harm individuals. And so this rage lies dormant. Oftentimes, even when we're putting on the smiley face, I'm a really happy person. I don't get it. Oh no, I control my emotions. Oh, I let it out through my music, through my dance. And I would say to that, some of the most intense forms of rage I've ever seen on retreat are individuals that were perpetual people pleasers and caretakers. Does that make sense? Right. Like, and we all gave them space, and it was like, let it out. Yeah. Let it out. So do you ever notice, like if someone has a really big reaction, whether tears or grief or yelling, that usually other people around will get emotional as well? That's that connection, right? That there is a part of me that can tap in to what you are feeling, because I felt it too. And I know that gets minimized, but it's so real.

And although I don't have research for this next part that I'm about to say, I've said this for a really long time. After doing therapy for 20-something years, what I saw over and over and over is that folks who were not at all in touch with their rage, internalized it to a T all the time. And those were the folks consistently coming and having panic attacks, anxiety disorders, right? Constantly internalizing it, and there are folks that are like, no, I'm enraged and I'm also anxious. My first response is, how are you working with this rage, right? Whose rage is it? Are you giving yourself an opportunity to name your rage? Are you engaging with your rage on a daily basis? And so, the question to the transmuting piece, for me, it's really simple.

Something that we want to have a better relationship with and transform, we don't just bring it up every once in a while. We're consistent. If I am dating a person and I like them, then I'm gonna respond to their text messages. I'm gonna make some space and talk to them on the phone, or walk in the park with them, or whatever one does these days. Right. So the reality is, it's the same thing with rage. My rage is my best friend. Hands down. And I have a very close inner circle. And my rage will tell me over and over and over when something is, let's just say, off. When something or someone is unhealthy for me. When someone is not telling the truth, I can feel it in my body. And for Jennifer, I start to feel agitation, because I don't feel agitated all the time for no reason. Like real agitation.

So what I invite people to do is create a shelf, an altar, a special, sacred place, a little somewhere in your home, even if it's in your car. And designate it to that sacred rage, to the rage that you want to build a relationship with. And in that little special place, you can put a picture of yourself when you were most silenced, right? Or when you were most holding in that rage. Usually, for a lot of us, it's around 8, 7, 10, right, where we start to, oh no, I don't like that flavor. Well, you're gonna eat it, or you're not gonna eat anything. Or, that's not fair, you can'…Life's not fair, tough, right? Like, you know, that, that, ugh, that hit. Or literal loss. Or literal physical violence. Or literal sexual abuse and violence, right?

Like, there's these spaces and places. And so, rage work is shadow work, right? It's shadow work, it's parts work. It's also loving-kindness work, right? Because the ask on this little special place is that, ah, you know, you might put a lollipop there because little-you wasn't allowed to have sweets. You might put a picture of yourself when you're most windblown and enjoying the beach or the boardwalk. You know, you might put a picture of a fruit, or colors that remind you of what your rage-ancestors really might want you to know. And every day, even if it's 5 to 10 seconds, the invitation is to acknowledge, to nod, what's up. Every day.

Now this sounds basic, right? But oftentimes it's the basic stuff that we're not doing. Oftentimes, it's the basic stuff that just feels so silly or so ordinary that, why would I do that? And my response to that is because there's a part of you that's dying to be seen and witnessed and known. And that's what that rage is. Rage is our collective underbelly. And all it really wants is for you to be safe. For other people to be safe. Right. And so anger is, like, there's a blocked goal, if something's difficult, something's not going your way. I am angry at something relationally. But rage, right, rage is usually never about what's right in front of us. You know, that's just, boop, it just touched the button, and it was already there.

Now, if you're, every day, saying, imagine I'm looking at my special place, or my altar, or my rage-sacred space. And when I don't have time to journal, or I don't have time to sit into it, or I don't have time to dance it out, 'cause you can do any of these things to honor it, right? Oh, I'm gonna put on a rage song. Hmm, this rage song sounds pretty sad, but this is what my body is desiring. I'm gonna let myself cry for the duration of this song, sing to this person that I miss, and feel pissed off and mixed feelings and all of it, right? Or, I'm gonna sit there, and I'm gonna say to myself, sacred rage, what would you like me to know today? And just let it come up.

Because what rage also does that I could promise you, and I'm a person of my word, is that, give it a few weeks, maybe even a month or two, depends how far down we've repressed it, it would also really, really expand our intuition. We'll start, right? Because our rage is no longer something, like, oh, I’m embarrassed, or, oh no, I can't get mad. Calm down. Calm down. Now. It's like ahhh, whatever you gotta say inside. Right? And then in your mind’s eye, or physically, if you don't care what people think, look over at your rage, metaphorically. And like, I got everything I need to know. How do I need to respond to the situation now? Right. And maybe you do respond with, don't ever do that shit again. Valid. Or maybe you respond with, we can't talk right now. I'm so enraged. I will come back to this shit. Right. Or maybe it's crying and sobbing and saying, I'm so fucking pissed. Anyone, anyone? Or hot tears where you can't get it out. That's rage, too, right?

'Cause really rage is about you and your nervous system. It's about your fight flight, freeze. Right? It is instinctual. Some of us shut down. Some of us puff out. You're not gonna do that. Right? And some of us, like, please, none of them are wrong. And none of them are something that you can, like, force. They just simply are. And so I'll frequently say to folks, we love rage as a society in theory, but we don't really love rage. And that's something I’m often, you know, some of my friends would say, like, yo, people love Black and Brown folks. Like, they love our culture, but they don't love us. Right. And it's like a similar energy. Like we love to pontificate about it. We love to talk about it, but when someone in front of us is making us feel uncomfortable because they're in rage, they're not punching, they're not hitting you, they're not, we're not saying, but you're feeling an emotional unsafety, then what do we need to do?

Also, to orient, maybe that is leaving and saying, you deserve this, but I can't, I'll be back, or I'll call you later. Or it's like, you don't get to talk to me like that. I'm gonna freaking leave. Or, it's, I'm gonna sit here and I can hold this space for you, but you have to lower your voice five decibels. Right? Like, there's ways that we can negotiate when the big emotion comes up, right?

I've even been able to say to someone in an organizing space that, it was like an argument, and it was about to be really big. And it was very personal to these two people. And I said, may I, may I, may I jump in? 'Cause they were screaming, right. May I jump in? May I jump in? And somebody was like, yes, yes. And I'll never forget that because there was still a part of both of them that still had a kernel of respect and love for the other. Even if it was, like, I'm gonna, right? It was like there's a certain part of them that felt violated, each of them, you know? And it was like, okay, okay, okay, can we come back to this, or can we this? Or can we even scream and tell the other what we're feeling? Would this be okay with both of you so you can get it out? Can we go over there, dah, dah, dah. And we quickly did it.

And I was like, okay, here's what's gonna happen afterwards. Afterwards, you're gonna go with so and so. You're gonna go with so and so, and you're gonna cry, scream, kick dirt. And my favorite thing to do for someone is make sure there's an aftercare plan. That's the only reason I am not a huge fan of, how would I say this, I'm not a fan of rage rooms. Typical ones. Unless folks do the labor and the work of ensuring that there is aftercare set up.

Here's why. Number one, you have to pay for, like, usually every little thing that you hit and smack. Two, when you just get started, you want more. So it's not like fully expelled and released. But three, you're walking away like, oh yeah, I think I feel better. Right. But there's a part of you that might wanna break down and cry. Normal. You know, rage and grief are besties. They're cousins. They reside together where one is the other is close behind. Right where one is the other is right there behind it. And those people that feel like they can be with grief more, they usually really need to feel their rage. And those that can be with rage a little bit more and have a hard time being sad, air quotes, usually need to be in that really puddley, exhausted, sad space. And so, it's kind of like looking your fear in its face. Yeah.

And so afterwards, I like to say again, I might call my best friend and say, hey, you think like in 45 minutes, you know, we can, like, call? Even though you're at your apartment and I'm at my apartment, we can, like, watch blank together on TV and just talk and like whatever, you know, like, talk and act like we're watching this together. Or do you think we can FaceTime and talk? Or, do you think that you can come by and just, like, be on standby and throw a blanket around me like I'm a burrito, and remind me why you like me and love me, and why I am lovable, and why I deserve to be here? And if that's too much for me, I'll tell you. You know, I do think that some of the onus is on us, you know, to make sure that there is something that makes us feel good. And sometimes we don't know what that is, but over time we start to get used to it, and we build that muscle like we're weightlifting, right?

Or like we're doing a new practice. We start, you know, wait, I have agency over my rage. My rage, like I said, is my best friend. Why? Because if I start to feel this particular feeling and I pull back a little bit, I start to notice things in myself. And if something happens with my stomach. I end up clearing my throat. I lean forward. You know, I notice little things in me when something is not in alignment for me, or someone is not telling me the truth. Sometimes it’s 'cause they're not telling themselves the truth. That doesn't mean they're bad, air quotes. It might mean it just doesn't work for me. You know, like, it doesn't, something's not on point for me. And so, all of this to say, step one, befriend that rage. Get curious about it, date it, date your rage, you know?

That means, like, you get to set limits, you get to set boundaries. You don't have to talk to it every night, but you do need to get curious and lean in to create a space, a place, and a time where you'll address your rage. If I'm running out, I’m still looking at it, I look over at my little rage altar, and I'm like, what do you need me to know today? What do you want me to know today? What would you like me to do today? Sometimes it's like, we need you to get a walk-in, or I want you to lift or hit something really heavy, you know?

Or it could be, oh, I'm thinking of so-and-so. You never followed up with them. And I'm like, oh yeah. And then when I talk to that person, maybe they're struggling, or maybe they're like, I missed you. I thought you didn't wanna call me back. And I'm like, oh, shit. You know? Right. Like it, it could be anything. It could be anything. But the invitation is to not judge it, and to be your own curious social scientist. And while you're doing that, you can also journal that if you have space and time. Sure, you can meditate. But rage usually doesn't prefer stillness. Rage is an embodiment of everything that has been stopped up and backed up. Of silence, of hangings, of beheadings, of lies of false treaties. Rage is there because there has been some breach of trust.

And so, rage wants to be shaken out. Rage wants to listen to a rock song even if you don't normally rock out, right? Rage wants to be sobbed out while you're like, you know, like, tapping on a body. Rage is uncomfortable. Yeah, it's uncomfortable, right? I've seen people urinate on themselves, snot hanging off adults, right? And it's like, when I'm doing a rage retreat, I'm just there like, doo, doo, doo. Good. Keep going, right? Like, you know, oh, you wanna throw up? Here we go. No problem.

I tell people that help me all the time, we don't have a reaction. We don't have a reaction to it, right? Because we don't need to add to the shame. We don't need to add to the stigma of, I urinated on myself. That's what needed to happen. You were so scared that little particle in you, that child in you. So what? Wet it. Wet yourself. You change, like, we’ll keep it safe. You'll change yourself, you'll clean yourself up. Like, that's a bodily function. Just like rage is a fucking bodily function, right? It's just, again, building that relationship so we're not popping off all the time. We're not losing our jobs or best friends. Where we can begin to hold space for this really big, beautiful emotion and nod to it every day. Lift your head to it every day.

Ask that question. What do you need? It might say ice cream. It might be quiet time with no one asking us for anything. It might be no social media, a social media pass for three days. Not because you wanna check out and not care, but because your energy is so deeply intertwined with everyone and everything you're scrolling past that you don't even know where you start and where somebody else ends. Right?

And maybe it's supposed to be that way, and maybe it's not. I just have questions. I don't know. I don't know. I'm still practicing. You know, the both/and, the expansion and the contraction, the same way nature does. And rage, just like nature, has its fall. It has its times where we have to hibernate and go within, that's humanity. It has it’s times where we need to pack on more weight and eat a little bit more and be by ourselves. Times where we come out, and the flowers are out, we're feeling good. You know, times where we're sweating it out, and we're not thinking about things. Rage deserves that as well. And rage has it’s seasons as well.

Kaméa Chayne: Wow. I felt so much through everything that you just shared. And I think it's important to emphasize, as you mentioned earlier, that there's a difference between knowing all of this in theory and through our intellectual mind, versus knowing it with our bodies and actually practicing it. And allowing others to practice and have space to express these things as well.

And as we're starting to wind down our main conversation, I wanna talk a little bit about this inner need for affirmation. I think there's a deeper part of us that wants validation, that wants affirmations. And I recently had the honor of interviewing Dr. Rupa Marya, a physician who was fired by UCSF for her advocacy for Palestinian Liberation.

And I think learning her story and the stories of so many others, and also feeling into my personal experiences, it just becomes quite clear that the colonial system outcasts people who don't follow its rules and who reject its value systems, right? It doesn't affirm us. We get fired, we lose sponsorships and funding, we get denied opportunities and access. We get punished in certain ways. We get smeared.

So I think it takes a really strong sense of kind of like a rootedness to be able to reframe all of these punitive consequences as kind of cracks for something else to emerge. To see that this emergence is much bigger than the immediate rewards that I might get from the system. And that otherwise can feel so comforting and so seductive as well.

I know that there's no ethical purity amongst all of this, and people often have to have one foot in and one foot out to play a little bit of the game, and then to kind of create more cracks for other ways. But having to navigate these constant rejections and punishments in different forms can still be very taxing to our souls and our bodies over time.

And we're wired in certain ways to, like, want these validations, too. So, I guess I'm curious what you'd say in terms of, like, what do we let guide and ground us and affirm us when it feels like so much of the world wants us to feel ashamed and crazy for our humanity, and for, like, this deep cellular, ancestral memory of who we are and what we might yearn for? Yeah, there's a lot there.

It's kind of disorienting to have the system constantly reject us and tell us that we're not good enough, we're not doing enough, and we get punished for these things. All these negative consequences of non-validation and rejections. So how do we ground ourselves if we can't turn to those things as sources of guidance?

Dr. Jennifer Mullan: Yeah. Great question. And I adore Dr. Rupa, you know, she's such a good human. And, as someone who has recently been going through some doxing myself and of my work, what I can say is that, that energy is intended to silence us. Exactly like you said, that energy is intended to really penalize the truth tellers. But what is the one thing that deeply sets us free and allows us to relax and unwind and unfurl? And that's telling the truth. And so that's what I would say is one of the things that gives me great reward, and one of the things that I think that we can do as a people is really allow ourselves to be in places and spaces where our whole, entire self and truth is welcome. Because colonial-capitalism will continue to have us scared and afraid. Colonial-capitalism will continue to say, well, look, this is the problem.

And if I can highlight Dr. Rupa, Dr. Mullan, Dr. Gabor Maté, Dr. this one or that…If we could do this to them, imagine what we can do to you if you step out of line. And the reality is that most of us, all of us, are everyday people that have feelings. And all of us are just desiring for this deep sense of fucking peace. So for me personally, for me, peace for me looks like people having clean running water. Right. So I'm gonna keep talking my shit, right? Because I was placed here to do that. And so my invitation, so I think on a clearer level, like what we can do to really balance, is really become part of something larger.

And that larger doesn't have to be a hundred people, that doesn't have to be the most known network pushing up against fascism. It could literally be your neighborhood block and you’re figuring out how to clothe and feed and house everybody in a few months or weeks, when it becomes quite different when everything changes. Because we are being warned, we're being forewarned, if you live in the States, yeah. In terms of what's happening, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when, right? And when that switch hits, because rights are already being taken away, people are already being locked up, deported, killed, harmed, assaulted, and detained, even if they're, quote unquote, American citizens, whatever that means, is they're coming back into the country. These things are already occurring. And so, for me, the only option is to, whew, what we did before we started, breathe into the fear, right? To feel it, to see it, to know that it doesn't have an opportunity to take me.

This is where I think our rage shows up, too, and our grief, right? Because for me, I get a little…what did they say? When I was 16 years old, I saw a therapist and she's like, oh, you have conduct disorder. You have antisocial tendencies. And I laugh now because, at the time, I cried, and I was like, what do you mean? What are you trying to say? Like, how that fucked me up, right? But now I'm just like, I have antisocial tendencies, I know. Meaning, like, yeah, fuck the system. Yeah. Like, no, you don't get to pick us off and pull us apart. No, you don't get us to make us feel unsafe with everybody around us and question everybody around us.

So my rage gets really big and goes, oh, good. Right. Now we can play, right? Now we can put our rage where it deserves to be, at these systems and places. And we can tell everybody at a really loud stage that you've never been fucked up in crazy. Right. That this is you trying to adjust to systems, structures and, and educational brainwashing that never wanted you to thrive and be healthy and be in good relationship.

Right. Everything in your life has been commodified. I honor, there are people like my best friend that say, oh no, when shit hits the fan, you just have to leave me. Like, leave me. And we laugh about this, and I'm like, you're gonna get me killed 'cause I'm never gonna leave you. You're gonna get us all killed. You know? She's just like, no, I'm too slow or I'll this, or I'll, you know, like, if the zombies come, just let 'em get me. And I'm like, well, there are much more real things that'll get you before zombies. That's number one. I'm being a little facetious, but you see, humor is one of my tactics. Like, humor and silliness, and music. Like, these are ways that I ground myself. Like, being the rallyist for all my friends and family is how I ground and take care of myself. And so, I don't think there's a one way for anyone. I think that each of us have to figure out how to survive that which wants us destroyed. And we can help each other figure that out. You know, we can help each other understand. This is really important for me to say, I feel.

For years, many of us, not just myself, have been talking about the violence of colonization. We have been talking about the very carefully arranged arrangement of racial politics. Like, the arrangement of the divide and conquer. The arrangement of splitting apart Black Panthers, Yellow Peril, Brown Berets. Right? Any of our people, right. The arrangement, the very purposeful arrangements in attacking Black Lives Matter folks, or trying to put Asian kin against Black kin, or Brown folks against Black. But, like, these are all part of an arrangement.

And a lot of us, including myself sometimes, have gotten so off on knowing a lot of information and being whatever we understand this, like, smart to be, that it's hard to know when to feel it. And now is the time in my humble opinion, that it's time to feel. It's time to like, okay, this is what colonization does. This is what racial-capitalism does. This is what, da, da, da, da. Right? So how do I take what has been up here in the head and intellectualized, and how do I gently, thoroughly, and consistently embody it? What does embodiment look like in the middle of societal collapse and change? And I don't think anybody has an answer. Right? We have some of the greats that have gone through their own forms of societal collapse. The greats, meaning beloved ancestors, collective ancestors that have written books, that have given talks, that have passed down wisdom. We understand that colonization, to me, causes insanity.

Dr. Frederick Hickling, may he rest in and power, passed away I think it was in 2021. And I only found out about Dr. Frederick Hickling, who's an amazing Jamaican psychiatrist, that was doing a lot of work in Bellevue Hospital in Jamaica, talking about, basically, global, decolonial mental health on world stages. Lots of people were released from Bellevue Hospital due to his and his colleagues' work around this sort of psychological, expressive arts form of historical movement and art, right? And the therapy that they were doing. This mix. And I thought to myself, that's what helped me and my peer educators survive.

We had our person do narrative therapy with us. We had a somatic component, we had a relational component, we had a learned intellectual component. And I would say that's exactly what we all need right now. We all need a few pods or one pod. Shout out to Mia Mingus and pod mapping. She saved my life. We all need a pod, or two or three, or as many as we can get, where we can start practicing healthy relationship, right? Or we've always been practicing healthy relationship. And I don't think this is the time that we always have to push ourselves really hard. But this is a time where we have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And rage and grief are gonna be riding with us, right and left hand. So what do we do with what we've always known now that we must embody it? And that is something that the West has a really hard time doing, is embodying. I’m not only the president, but I'm a client. So I hope I answered your question. I hope this makes sense.

Kaméa Chayne: Yeah. I mean, these are unprecedented times. There's never been something like this in the course of human history. So I think it's okay to not know the answers and to feel it out as we go, and to maintain humility amongst all of this, too.

But I just also wanna say that I've personally been really impacted by your work, and I feel really inspired by your rawness, your realness, and your rootedness in everything that you share. So just wanted to personally share a big thank you.

And as we're wrapping up here, Dr. Jenn, I wanna invite you to share any upcoming projects that you've been working on, that you are excited to continue working on. And any final, closing words of wisdom for us as Green Dreamers.

Dr. Jennifer Mullan: Yeah. Thank you. Well, number one, organize, everybody. You know, organize, whatever that looks like to you. Don't assume that it's not going to impact you or your family. And at the same time, part of that organizing is the joy. And may we be rooted. Rooted in our values, rooted in clarity, and rooted in a sense of love.

It makes sense why the sixties and the seventies occurred, to me, when we come out of the forties and the fifties in the States, right? Like, you know, it makes a lot of sense why people are like, I just wanna dance. And, you know, have consensual love and like, find a way. And I say, let us do all of it now, all of it, right?

Tend to the Earth the way you would a sibling, as well. Every day, I name the trees around my house. I live in a city, and I'm definitely not in a suburb, and I'm definitely not in the countryside. So I try to go to the park. I just try to relish when things feel so overwhelming. I deeply relish, in all of the phases, what animals go through on a consistent basis, too. So allow yourself to find some peace within nature and what's around us.

And let's see, things that I'm working on. Well, I would say, we're having a rage retreat pretty soon for women and non-binary folks. And there is a wait-list for that. I've been taking my time because I can be a little bit of an annoying perfectionist. Virgo rising, Venus in Virgo, and Mars in Virgo. And it's so sensitive. It just needs to be right, and you know, it just needs to be right. And so, I'm gonna take my time, and not rush the way colonial-capitalism will have me rush.

So there'll be a rage retreat with a lot of details coming up over the next month and a half. That will be in spring 2026. There is also a Decolonizing Therapy course that is self-guided, that is a support to the book. That's gonna be coming out. And on the heels, also, an unlearning institute where you go to unlearn all the shit that your education system has put in you. That's what we're building out and creating.

 
kaméa chayne

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